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Alain · Rookie user Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

Channi58, please can you post a youtube link for watching Balwinder Singh Phidoo in action?

I continue developping here my idea of a new set of rules for a "more synthetical" kabaddi style, that would be including some specific dynamics of Amar and Goongee styles.

While aiming at including some more 1 on 1 wrestling action, this new style should remain a safe full-contact sport, but NOT becoming a "collision sport".
My idea is to develop a safe (full-)contact sport, for recreational and educational purpose, and that could also be a thrilling competition sport.
These new rules would be meant for promoting both multiple and/or single combat action, and safety.

The small area (like in national style court, or just slightly larger in length) would completely eliminate the full speed running, and its dangerous consequences when in full-power collision...
As well, some dangerous techniques would be banned, like the scissor techniques, and only rugby-type tackles at the legs and at the trunk would be allowed (like in national style), plus other typical Kabaddi/Judo throws...

Alain · Rookie user Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

Wrestling in a small area:
- Sumo is, for example, played on a small circle, which is less than 4 meters in diameter...
Of course, a sumotori doesn't try to escape from the other, and both want to struggle rather than avoid confrontation.
Sumo also demonstrates that "fast wrestling" is truly possible in such a reduced area:
- a Sumo fight is normally very short, often under 30 seconds...

There is no running involved, but still there is common bursts of energy like in Kabaddi.
Sumotori not only fight for taking down their opponent, but simultaneously for gaining dominance over this small circle space, and for taking their opponent out of the circle...
There is both grabbing/throwing and palm striking techniques (even to the face, but forbidden in amateur Sumo!).
[Someone has mentioned in the forum Teeri Kabaddi, a style where palm striking is allowed, like in Sumo]

In a small national style Kabaddi area, which is much larger than Sumo circle, it could also be possible to do 1 on 1 combat, as well as multiple against one combat:
- for example, the lobbies of the court would be forbidden during the struggle for 1 on 1 combat,
- the gate for exit would be reduced to the minimal width (something like a normal door),
- and the raider would face the gate and the opponent (like in Goongee style)...

So, the 1 on 1 struggle could take place on an area of 8 meters width on 6,25m in length, as in national style (or perhaps even 8 meters for a complete square area).
Logically, the gate would be more easily protected by the anti, because the option for running only could not be a systematical sufficient strategy in a 8 meters square.
There should have at least some fast wrestling before passing through the gate...

On a small area, a little change in dimensions (width + depth) has an important impact on the dynamic of play.
If the court becomes 8 meters in depth, instead of 6,25 m, it would add more challenge for the raider.
As I've exposed in another post, this could area could be a unique central court where each team would alternate offensive/defensive phases.
That would divide by two the needed area for playing, which is much advantageous for competition and regular practice organization.

Alain · Rookie user Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

Chain system strategy:
As for the idea of limiting the allowed number of antis participating to the tackle, it would depend on the chain system strategy, and I'm not sure that it would become much easier for the raider.

The defensive choice would be between forming only 1 or 2 chain(s), or alternatively forming 3 smaller separate chains.
Thus, it would be the choice between favouring:
- more speed/mobility over tackling force (less antis for tackling) = 3 separate chains strategy
- more tackling force (more antis for tackling) over speed/mobility = 1 or 2 chain(s) strategy

Because danger would still potentially come from all the antis present, independently of the chain system used, and with the risk of being surrounded, until one of the antis would initiate the tackle.. so that the raider would still have to move continually as he does in national style...

The zone of risk for the raider would still be approximately between the baulk line (sometimes even deeper, from the bonus line) and half-way to the mid-line (from my observation of national style video-clips, it is in that zone that most often occurs the initial struggle).
Then, two or three antis would still be a hard challenge during a struggle for the raider succeeding his retreat...

The rule about the retreat could also be modifed, making it also more difficult for the raider to retreat:
- for example, it would not be enough to just touch the line, but the raider would have to pass the line with his whole body...

That modified retreat rule would impact very much the struggle, even if the court remains 6,25 meters in length.
Changing the length of the court and/or changing the rule for the retreat would be a question only resolved by real tests application in order to verify its impact on the play...

The game could perhaps (?) find a different balance between the raider and the antis.
The game would become not only systematical all antis against one, nor not only systematical 2 or 3 antis against one, neither not only systematical 1 on 1 combat, but a strategical, and impredictable, change between all these possibilities...

For example, the chain system could also be dynamically changed during the same raid, simply by spontaneously grabbing a partner, or on the contrary by disengaging from the chain(s), making it impredictable for the raider what to definitely expect at the moment of the tackle...

Of course, that rule would demand to seriously practice a new level of skills for the teamwork coordination.

Finally, a simple principle (the chain system) would produce a high complexity strategy, and a thrilling game offering possible various kind of combat (from all antis, to less ones, to only one anti against the raider).

It is said that the raider is the crucial role of the game, because he is the one who can score many points in a single raid, while the antis only can score 1 point by stopping him.
Yes, and it still would be like that because of the score, but this multi-level of complexity of defense would balance the importance of playing offensive and defensive role.

Sorry I'm too long again.
Cool

Channi58 · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject:

Alain you don't have to say sorry I also write long posts!
Striking is valid in Amar style as well (to the neck and back of head), this is normal course of engaging raider into a wrestling struggle typically Greco-Roman clinch. This is considered part of gripping in Amar style kabaddi. Notice I have seen this to the face more in the past but it is strictly enforced in Toronto league not to strike face anymore. Used to be common strategy to strike face and neck.
In the true one on one kabaddi (teeri or googni?), striking is truly more prevalent to the face seems to be more interesting struggle. Might explain why Harjit Bhajakhanna and Phiddoo were powerful strikers. Phidoo would slap (palm strike in marital arts lingo), and send the biggest stoppers flying through the air with ease. Harjit is legendary for his strength. Apllied when stopper is slightly offbalance produced drastic change of pace in the struggle, Harjit was unstoppable. I will post some clips.
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Admin · World Class user Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 491

there's these two files in our video gallery
India vs Pakistan 1995
Right click and save to download

India vs England 1995
These video features two of the greatest raiders ever to play the game
Harjit Brar and Balwinder Singh "Fidoo"
Harjit is wearing blue shorts. You will recognize him from his smile.
Fidoo is wearing a blue patka (head covering). Like Channi said he's a famous player who was great in both national and circle kabaddi dispite his size.
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Channi58 · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject:

Admin thanks for posting India clips from 95 Wolrd Cup vs. England and Pakistan.

Alain, response to point about amount of stoppers. Amar style uses typcially 4 stoppers, Pakistani Amar style uses 5 stoppers as well.
Also they play more one on one style at the youth level compared to India from what I have seen and heard cna someone confirm this?
They use more throws to escape the stoppers, a player from india that comes to mind that does that is Rangiawala Pehlwan and Sonujump. Produces a dynamism that the stoppers find hard to handle raiders like this. Not just sacriface throws, but shoulder throws famous dhobi patt from indian wrestling, also greco Roman style body lock type throws. Other successful techniques are Uchi-mata (inside leg throw), and all the various leg trips inside and outside. Also good are the traditional and peculiar to Indian style wrestling "leg swings" that work great to the front of opponents lower body and behind as well very difficult to defend and hardly ever defended against. Great counters is the leg swing as well in defense, and the outside leg trip rotating and momentum carrying opponent on bottom and you on top. Many more applications of great throws possibility in kabaddi adn self deffense as well. Regards.
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Amo · Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:16 am Post subject:

good helpfull info channi
check out the video of the british army team in the other topic
http://www.kabaddi.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=13757
or
http://www.kabaddi.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1889

the 95 World kabaddi championship India vs England and India vs Pakistan videos are now online on google video as well

India vs England
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3466407461608513331

India vs Pakistan
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=911933797554293593
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Alain · Rookie user Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

Thanks Amo for posting these google links, as I can only access on Youtube and google video-clips on my computer.
I will see them later.

Channi58, thanks for all these informations, and particularly for the technical part.

Can you tell me what difference it makes between 4 stoppers rule and 5 stoppers rule ?
Is it more or less difficult for the raider, or on the contrary, for the stoppers, in one or the other chain system?
Depending on the number of stoppers, is it more easy for threatening the raider, or is it more difficult for the stoppers to coordinate their defense?
Or perhaps, both things depending on the skills?
Just curious to know the impact on the game with such difference...

Can you also translate these following techniques in japanese Judo terminology, for helping me visualize them more precisely:
- "various legs trips inside and outside": are you referring to techniques like o-ouchi/ko ouchi gari, o soto gari/ko soto gake?
- Indian style wrestling "leg swings": is it like hiza guruma/sasae tsurikomi ashi/de ashi barai?
- Great counters is the leg swing as well in defense, and the outside leg trip rotating: what would be its equivalent in Judo?

In Kabaddi are the usual techniques referred to by a hindi terminology, or an english one?

Just one more question:
- I've read two different translations for the word "Kabaddi":
one being "holding its breath", and the other being "challenge and supremacy"...
Can you tell me if both are from this same word?
Thank you for your help.
Cool

Channi58 · Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:18 am Post subject:

Can you tell me what difference it makes between 4 stoppers rule and 5 stoppers rule ?

Maybe someone can help with this I have only seen this once before my eyes (live). Seems against the weaker teams the stoppers overwhelmed the raider by a more complete encirclement. Against stronger teams seemed to make less of a difference, more easier double touches.

Can you also translate these following techniques in japanese Judo terminology, for helping me visualize them more precisely:
- "various legs trips inside and outside": are you referring to techniques like o-ouchi/ko ouchi gari, o soto gari/ko soto gake?
- Indian style wrestling "leg swings": is it like hiza guruma/sasae tsurikomi ashi/de ashi barai?
- Great counters is the leg swing as well in defense, and the outside leg trip rotating: what would be its equivalent in Judo?

inside outside leg trips-osoto gari and ko/ouchigari
indian leg swings-very powerful leg movement that knocks the opponent down with ease. This is kind of like taking a leg and sticking it behind oppoents lower leg when his back is towards you-sorry I fogot the judo name for this maybe no name-but common in Indian wrestling and kabaddi I have used this with much success in Judo, there is no defense for this one no one in practice has been able to stop this swing. This is unique Indian trick that I have read about that the Great gama used to employ and the Europeans were baffled by its effectiveness.

Great counters

This is someone doing osotogari to you or any type of variation of that throw, and you simply pull one shoulder hooking under neath the armpit and rotate your body on top so when you and opponent hit the ground you are on top. Very effective, I have not seen this in judo yet. Suspect it doesn't exist in Judo.

There is another counter to the Ouchi Gari where the person that is getting thrown turns the momentum of the Ouchi Gari to his advantage whereby he turns it into a variation of Ippon Seionage. Very interesting of course these are done at higer speed than judo since the kabaddi is done at running speeds and sprinting levels are achieved so the momentum can be turned against the opponent easily, however these are done close the stoppers line where there is less momentum availalbe to be used since the speed is typically less here since they are moving fast on the spot or a few steps as opposed to away from the line where a full sprint is achieved.

In Kabaddi are the usual techniques referred to by a hindi terminology, or an english one?

Amar style is in Punjabi but names are same as in Hindi. Rememebr that Amar style is played only in the villages of Punjab away from the cities, save for a few kabaddi academies in the cities like Lacher Academy in Jalandhar and the tournaments which are done by hiring the stadiums that are located in the cities.

Alain I hope to compile videos of the techniques from various sources. I am sure that these techniques can be used to win a world championship in judo somedayfor someone with an open mind.
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Alain · Rookie user Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

Thank you channi58!
If you can compile some different techniques on one video-clip, with a youtube or google link, it would be very useful so as to offer a more complete picture of Amar style dynamism.

A picture is better than a thousand words.
And both together are even better!

It could be presented in two or three short video-clips:
- one clip for some standing throws techniques only (perhaps plus other tackle techniques in the same clip, or separately?)
- one clip for slapping and unbalancing techniques while running, very specific to kabaddi (although there is something approaching in rugby/american football)
- another clip for ground techniques (including standing against ground techniques)

Then, these video-clips would refer to www.kabaddi.org, directly to a special "technical post" that would enumerate the various kind of techniques, and perhaps comment them.
Good publicity for kabaddi, and better identification of its specificity for the occasional visitors of the forum.

Cool

Alain · Rookie user Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Brazil

Just to say about some other tag games from India that I´ve read about on internet, and that inspire me.

One is called Saldu, and is similar to Asian (Transnational) style Kabaddi, except that the area is much bigger, so that there is difference in the running.

Another is called Gella Chutt, and seems to be only tag game, and no wrestling, but the dynamics of the game seems very interesting.
Another is called Atya patya, also a tag game only.
Infortunately, I haven´t seen any video clips for those tag games.

Another is called Kho-kho, another tag game only, and there are some video-clips on youtube.
If you know some clips for theses games, please share the link.
Thank you.
Cool

Admin · World Class user Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 491

cool
I always thought Kho Kho was just for girls. guess not.
It looks like duck duck goose (a children's game) although I've never played either so don't know
there are a few videos on google and youtube
this link lists a few at the top and some more if you scroll down. have to sort through the other video's with kho in the title or description
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=kho+kho&sitesearch=
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